Yes, There's a Minister for Design

Colin Really?

Rachel Yeah!

Colin (laughs) That's great.

Rachel I find myself reflecting on my own life.

Colin Oh, yeah? And what are some thoughts?

Rachel Some of the things that you've said, like how you're privileged not to be questioning yourself, or MOD as a company and your firm core beliefs. Your core beliefs are very strong, and the only thing that you might be uncertain about is how your client reacts to it.

Colin (laughs)

Rachel Yeah! I want to, achieve this strong identity myself.

Colin Cool! Yeah, I'm sure you get there with some humility and openness. Hey, there's a fine line between that and arrogance because you can be wrong and think you're not, but there's also just a quiet confidence lah that you know you've done the best you can.

Rachel Congratulations for achieving this!

Colin Well. It's a gift that I am very grateful to have.

Colin (laughs) Oh my gosh, yeah, I think this needs to be a three-way interview. I may not cover all the bases, but I think I can speak quite adequately on her behalf as well because I think we're quite similar in our take on this. Well, you're right. The whole basis of a partnership like this is already challenging, and to be married to someone – because you have to live with them, you have to deal with their quirks and everyone is different, right? – is already challenging. So, I think what this has done is it has allowed us to appreciate how we are really different, but different in ways which make each other better.

And also, the funny thing is, we have learned how to fight better. I mean, obviously, there is no way we wouldn't disagree and have this very sort of lively and sometimes, heated discussions about things. But we've learn how, over the years, to fight better and to sort of resolve things better or to listen better, also. That was not so easy at the start. And also we are quite different in terms of our personalities. I am more of a sort of risk-taker and she's less risk-averse. And I think that's great, because if you have two very risk-averse people, you get nowhere, if you have two incredible risk-takers, you will probably be dead in a ditch (laughs). So in this case, I think we balance each other out, and we often initially may not agree on something and then we realise: Yeah, the reason we don't agree is because there are many ways to see the same thing. And I'm grateful that there's another opinion. So this small circle or binary dialogue for two has become enlarged to three with you know, David. And then now four with Joyce. We also have some other very treasured senior staff like the gentleman who heads our technical team, his name is Richard. And we have other staff that we really trust and also include in conversations of importance. There's a French gentleman, his name is Damien, who joined us as an intern, came back for his first job, then came back again and stayed on and now you know, is doing very well with us. There are stories like that where people come and stay for eight years, 10 years and hopefully grow with us.

Of course, there are people who also leave because the design universe is very large, and you want to experience different things. But I think when there's a chord that is struck, not just at the: 'Oh, I agree with MOD's design ethos', but when there's a personal chord that is struck, like: 'I actually like these people, and I want to sort of grow old career-wise with them', you know, that's really nice.

Rachel Yeah, that sounds great! It's like a home away from home.

Colin Yes! Yes. Yeah. Another really treasured member, who was with Joy and myself right at the start, is this gentleman called Kevin Leong. And we tease we teach him sometimes because when we take these, what we call family portraits, everyone sits together and we take this group of 30. And when we sit him in the middle, he's got this calm, very sort of genteel nature – he looks like the grandfather of group you know? Like the centre. So we always joke that he's like the granddaddy of the firm, yeah.

Rachel Nice, okay. Thank you for sharing about your early life, now let's move on to the design processes.

Colin Wow, okay, Singapore, Singapore. I mean this is a very million dollar question right? Like 'What is Singapore design' and then also 'How is your work Singaporean'? I tend to think of Singaporean-ism or the core of Singapore's DNA, not so much as an aesthetic. I think, for me what is most Singaporean is a very clever, pragmatic hybridisation of things. So, I think Singaporeans are very good at reviewing what exists, taking it and then making it that much better or that much, you know, more customised for our needs. Much more so than maybe true original content, which arguably doesn't really exist any way. You know, with sort of the proliferation of influences around the world right, how can anyone say anything is truly original? If you look hard enough, I'm sure you'll find some kind of precedent reference or image that is similar. So I don't think therefore, our work is Singaporean in a way.

The fact that we're headquartered in Singapore, to me, has become less and less relevant, especially post-pandemic where we have moved to what I call MOD 2.0, where we want to balance a hardworking, passionate life with an equally meaningful outside-of-work life. So instead of work-life balance, we try and have life-work balance. So life coming first, and your work fitting into your life rather than your life fitting into your work. And so an example of that would be if let's say, I wanted to work at OMA, I would have to move to Rotterdam, or Hong Kong, or New York. And if someone wanted to work at MOD they would have to move to Singapore, right? But now that we're all in Singapore, and we got locked down in Singapore – (no one) really like being stuck on a small island for two years – once the pandemic lifted, everyone wanted to be somewhere else. And you realise: Hey, because I've managed to work quite successfully remotely through great technologies, – like, you know Slack and Miro and all kinds of iPads and all that – if I managed to work quite successfully, in a remote fashion, why am I still stuck in my apartment in a very dense neighbourhood? Unless I want to be but if I don't want to be and I'd rather take that same money and live in a, you know, decent-sized villa on a hillside, or by the beachside, somewhere less expensive, but still can work, why not?

So we came up with MOD 2.0. So the relevance of being headquartered in Singapore becomes ever increasingly less critical. Except Singapore, I think, is synonymous to me not with just that initial characteristic that I talked about, but it's also synonymous with a certain kind of professionalism and quality and rigour. Right, when you say made or thought or conceived by Singaporeans, working abroad, et cetera, there's some basic level of expectation, as opposed to let's say some other nationality which may be known for something else. So I think that brand "Singapore" is still good. But in terms of wanting our project to be Singaporean in any sort of way, shape or form is only needful if the project truly is in Singapore. And then again, Singapore is not huge but it's got pockets of identity.

A project in Singapore in Geylang, versus Joo Chiat, versus Tiong Bahru versus Orchard, versus Toa Payoh, versus Woodlands would be inherently very different. Like I love the void deck that some of our young contemporary artists have been doing. Versus let's say a sculpture in Marina Bay Sands, you know, completely different nature. All Singaporean, but so different right? So to me, it's a question of localisation, but still not to a point where it speaks such a strange undesirable local vernacular and vocabulary that is not globally-understandable anymore. So our work strives to be that – to be locally-inspired and relevant but also globally-accessible and attractive.

Rachel Amazing.

Colin And it's also necessary because our work is in many cities around the region, and also in North America, et cetera.

Colin Or what fundamentally changed, if anything at all right?

Rachel Yeah.

Colin I mentioned that already, so as opposed to being in physical space. And yeah, I mean, the value of physical space is the serendipitous interactions and exchanges, obviously, we miss out on those. And we've tried to compensate with having, a really amazing annual retreat and get-togethers as much as possible for design events or workshops. But we definitely miss out on that. But what it does allow you is the balance between your work and your life now becomes more, there is more autonomy for you to shape your life a certain way, and not around your work, but your work around your life more.

Rachel Yup.

Colin Right? Before, really, if you were stuck in the office, from a certain time to a certain time, you couldn't run out and do errands, even if you felt lethargic, you couldn't go to the gym and do a quick workout. You just couldn't do that. Very few of us had the autonomy to do that. I would do that. But that's because I'm the boss – no, I'm kidding. But I mean, I'd be happy if people did that too, because our staff are very responsible. But now with remote working, it really allows you to do that even more. Because you don't have to be physically-tied to a space. And you realise how physical space has its value and must be treated with a lot of respect. And when you meet physically, you must celebrate it and really embrace it. Hug, kiss – intellectually, physically, whatever – and embrace being together, rather than just sitting side by side, but not really engaging. Like, you know, teenagers on their phones beside each other, but not talking?

Rachel Yup!

Colin Yeah. Interestingly, we had a grouping of all our remote staff coming back to Singapore headquarters, and some of them worked in the office. And they said, they thought it would be a very immersive experience, but they realised that 80% of the time, they were sitting beside someone else who was just quietly doing their work. And the interactions were limited, right? And that's the truth of the matter, especially if you don't want to get distracted, you want to put your head down and do your work, that's what happens. So work is not a social club, we form communities and bonds through and because of it, and we may be inspired to continue working in a firm, it's one of the key reasons, but certainly if you have no choice to make it more secondary to other things, which are important to you, then that's not great. So that's how it's really majorly changed for us.

Colin I don't think we've gotten there yet. Because, you know, we still spend, not always, but sometimes more time than we'd like. So we're working also on other things like, like processes and cutting out unnecessary fluff or unnecessary iterations of stuff to be more surgical, more meaningful and more precise. So together with that, I think we can really form that work-life balance or life-work balance.

Rachel Nice. (laughs) That's a very unique approach. Usually companies would just be work-centric.

Colin Yeah.

Rachel So I think that what you have is very special.

Colin I will give the credit to an experience I had when I was at OMA, and we were working six days a week and having lunch, dinner, sometimes even breakfast at the office. And we were working on a project for a public plaza and amphitheatre space in Tenerife (Canary Islands). I am a very passionate person but if all my life is just work, I find that it drains me. Then the irony was we're designing spaces for people to live, but yet we were not living. And I said to myself, how long can a person generating experiences for others generate those meaningfully if he or herself isn't able to experience life? It just doesn't make sense. So going out there, living a rich life actually, I think, contributes to your work and vice versa.

Rachel Completely agree.

Colin (both laugh) So you're gonna ask your boss for more off time lah.

Rachel No, actually we have it very good already.

Colin Are you nervously looking at someone in particular?

Rachel No, I'm nodding and agreeing. (both laugh)

Colin Sorry to put you in the spot.

Rachel Ah, no.

Colin I'm sure you have a great, great working environment.

Rachel Yeah. Actually just to tell you more, we work from home three days a week.

Colin Okay!

Rachel And then we work in office two days just to discuss.

Colin Yeah!

Rachel And like, hug intellectually, as you said.

Colin Yes, yes, hug and kiss intellectually.

Rachel So it's great.

Colin Yeah, good on you.

Colin Yeah, I can. In fact, you're sitting in the space right now. The MOD Office was a very interesting project. Because if you look at MOD's portfolio, yeah, maybe there's some underlying DNA that one can discern, but it's not sitting at the surface, it's more deep. So at the surface the projects, at a superficial glance, look quite different in terms of aesthetic, shape, materials, choice, et cetera. And that's because every project has a unique starting point, right? And the answer, therefore, the Disturbing and the Redefining is different. So I consciously use colour and actually the neutrality of it in our office, to provide a canvas space, so that when we create the numerous iterations of different types of spaces, we wouldn't necessarily be influenced by our environment, if it was overly-distinctive. So let's say we had a very distinctive office with a certain, like, you know, look and feel. I felt that that might influence us a certain way. So I wanted the office to be almost conceptually like a canvas. Yeah. And although white and black are quite neutral, they're also really strong colours at the same time. So it's kind of ironic that way, so that's one way we've used colour.

Rachel That's the first time I've heard someone say that white and black are very strong colours.

Colin They are, they are!

Rachel They are actually, now that I think about it.

Colin Yeah. They're very powerful colours, but also at the same time, simultaneously, there's a neutrality about them.

Rachel Yeah!

Colin They are extremes, which they literally are, but at the same time, there's a neutrality about them. And there's a reason why you go into an art gallery, it's a white box. Right? Or, like when you want to capture, let's say, you've – I'm sure you do photography, if you want to capture a painting, for instance, you put a black backdrop up, right? So it mutes and sucks all the light. And you focus on just that. So this room, for instance, you're sitting in, it's also a play on the power of colour to provoke a certain experience. So the whole room – shell, floor, walls, ceilings – are black. The only thing that is white is the table because you recognise that it draws your attention to the medium of the table. And when you put boards or paper, it's white on white. So all your attention sort of gravitates towards this middle portion. So that's another way of how colour is used. And because we're sitting in a room where the two ends are black mirror, or black glass that's highly reflective, almost like a mirror, the white table which sits edge to edge. It's a very unusual meeting room because you have to walk around the door to get to the other side because the table is the full room's width.

Rachel (laughs) Yes.

Colin It feels like it stretches the table – doubles or triples the length of it because of the black and white contrast. Yeah, so that's one example.

Rachel It's like an endless table.

Colin Yes, that's right. Also, it separates us from clients, so if they want to kill us we are safe on this side.

Rachel Oh... That's so smart! (both laugh)

Colin Yeah, texture obviously is incredibly important. Like one of the most powerful experiences I've ever had was at the Thermal Baths at Vals by Zumthor, and it's all about texture, right? It's just one material, stone, that is either smooth or bush hammered which is rough, or honed which is kind of like mat, and all of it makes your skin and how you feel very different. I mean texture in today's context of Instagram and since we experience most spaces fully clothed, isn't as critical for our body it's more our eyes. Our eyes read the texture. But texture is the most important in places where you are actually nude or semi-nude, like a bathing area, a pool area, a bath area because that's where textures really affect you very much more. So when we design hotels, you know bathroom experiences, bedroom experiences, the sofa, how something feels on your skin, you don't even have to sort of be told how to feel if you sit in something that's silky and soft, versus something that's a bit prickly and rough, immediately you're really cued in a certain way. So that kind of texture is very, very critical.

Rachel So it's all about influencing...

Colin Behaviour or response –

Rachel Yeah, people's behaviour and perception.

Colin – or perception, yeah, or your mood! I'm very, extremely sensitive to texture. So like if my wife or somebody is wearing something that is like wool and a bit rough, even when I look at it, right, the hairs on the back of my neck bristle, because I just cannot touch it.

Rachel So what would you wear to a winter country?

Colin I cannot, I cannot wear something that is wool, yeah it's got to be something else.

Rachel (both laugh) That's so interesting!

Colin (laughs) I know. I actually feel a physical aversion to it. There are things like that. So yeah, texture is that important. I mean, I'm sure everyone feels that to some degree. Yeah. Also, one texture I'm very interested in beyond space is mouth texture. Mouthfeel. Something in your mouth. Like, how does your enjoyment, or lack of enjoyment, or degree of enjoyment of let's say, what you consume – food – change because of texture? And how it influences your experience, right? That's very, very interesting, I find. So the micro world inside you, and then the macro world around you, all of these textures kind of come into play.

Rachel Very nice. Everything aligns somehow.

Colin Yeah, it does.

Colin Actually, it's not the same. If you're there in real life, you'll realise that the tubes – so the Race Laboratory is a robotics testing ground, and also an arena where they hold public events for a company that develops robotics technology. And we created the space out of these modules, like triangular modules; frames, but each of these frames is facaded or skinned with metal tubes. And these metal tubes, although they are the same colour, they are round. So the nature of tubes is that it curves, right?

Rachel Yup.

Colin And a curve catches light very, very differently. So something that's flat on the table, versus something that is curving, (rolls paper into a tube) the top catches the most light, less, and then least, right?

Rachel That makes sense.

Colin So, this is matte paper, but imagine you take a reflective or semi-reflective material, and then it's tubed, and it runs in different directions, and light is cast on it. So it's actually highly-textured, it's just a lot of variations of a similar texture scaled-up. We tend to try in most of our projects, to have a balance of both visual and tactile textures, and not inundate the senses. So we find work, where it's a catalogue of very many different textures – too many – to be sometimes imbalanced and overly-weighted. We try and be a bit more nuanced. Yeah, and also then very clear in what you're meant to take away from that.

Colin Bynd Artisan, yeah! Great, great, local hero, both very smart in creating their brand image, back to the quality, as well as good product, and they have this interesting practice of teaming up with local design firms to create these small little capsule collections. And when they approached us, I was very game because I do love leather, as you can see. (gesturing towards his leather jacket) And, oh, by the way, I got this tailored, and I love creating these things. They came to us and they said: What would you like to do? And you know that they make portfolios and binders, and you know –

Rachel Yeah, I actually have some.

Colin You have some of them? Of course, you should! It's very nice. So one thing that we had not done before, as MOD goes, is create a wearable. And I was very interested. I'm quite interested in fashion, and I wanted to create a wearable and the idea was not just something that would sort of take over your image, but something that would fit into your image by you customising it. So what we did was, we were inspired by the lapels of like a tuxedo, and we abstracted that into a series of shapes like triangles. Actually, if you break it down, you can see it's formed by different-sized triangles. And we created a fixed module that has, at its ends, negative holes for a certain fixing module to punch through and join to another module. So you create a chain, you can then take that basic shape – there are about six or seven basic shapes-- and you can create what you felt represented you either today or for the season, or however you're feeling, and there are also different colours.

So it was the idea of empowering people through fashion to make them creators and not just consumers. Yeah, have fun with your fashion rather than be told what fun is.

Rachel It kind of reminds me of what you said about LEGO-building being your childhood thing.

Colin Yeah (x5), correct! And, like infinitely dismountable and reassembled and create something else. Right?

Rachel Yup, all the permutations.

Colin Yeah. So some people have, you know, taken and worn it so well, like my favourite example is our good friend and the Principal of UPSTRS_ – who was once at MOD – Dennis Cheok, who wears it with such style. He wears it under jackets, and it looks like a waistcoat, almost. But you know, it's made of these fractals. So it's not blingingly obvious, but when you go up close, then you see: Oh, it's actually quite different from your typical accessory. And it's not small. It's almost like body armour size. And you can just keep adding to it. Or you can have a very small version if you want.

Rachel (laughs) Nice, very adaptable.

Colin Yeah, yeah. It was a very fun project, it was a very fun project.

Colin There're so many good projects, I mean, like right at the start there was the New Majestic, right to the end and continuing is the MOD Office itself as a project, it's an existential project. There have been so many key hotels that I love, but I think what I love best – and it's not even publicised in the website, and on any media – is our own home because we are the both the client as well as the creative for it. And the benefit of being the client is not so much that you can do anything you want. Because you can't, obviously – there's always gravity, budget and government authority to deal with – but we had the time to be able to gestate and really be able to commit the thought process. So we have lived in it for about three years, but prior to that we spent five years ruminating – I did at least, Joy was a very great client.

And I went through 15 different prototype designs before the final 15th version – they're all radically different. And then the 15th version had, you know, nine, internal iterations. So it's 15.9. And why it was so great is because it's not just a space to live in, but it's a space to express your passions, your philosophy. And I designed into it many opportunities to keep fiddling around with things, not so much the architecture, but it's like a living gallery space. So I'm forever doing like a new floral arrangement, the kitchen is the sort of centre of one of the spaces, and it's like a lab – it's completely open, people can just walk all around it, there're no sort of – it's not enclosed in anything.

And for me, that's my other passion, which is culinary creations. And it's so different from what we do for a living because you can conceive, shop, cook, consume and serve a meal in one day, literally. Whereas all our projects take like five years before it happens. (both laugh) And so there's a huge amount of satisfaction in that. So the home I would say is probably one of my most precious and favourite projects because we get to live in it and shape it continually as we live in it.

Colin Yes, yes. I think that plug there by Kelley probably needs a response and an invitation to her to come back to eat (both laugh) – it provokes a positive response. I love to do this particular method of cooking, where I take Western techniques, right, you know your classic Western techniques, but really reimagine it through those sort of Asian flavours, and herbs, and flavour profiles. It's cause I live very close to Tekka Market, so I've been going there for 20 years. And there's a great vegetable seller, Chia's and they play good jazz music, they've an incredible selection, there's a good fishmonger, there's a great chicken place, a great fruit seller, and I try to get everything from there as much as possible.

And then you know, a couple of other shops, and just around the corner from where I live, there's also a seafood wholeseller, so I get fresh, jumping prawns, and flip flapping fish, and, you know, crabs. And so it's taking all of those techniques, and then questioning why they need to be done in this way, and then sort of reimagining it. So it's a little bit like what I do for work.

Rachel Yeah. (laughs)

Colin And I also draw out how things are plated, I'll take pictures of the plates, and then I'll use my iPad and sketch on it, how things are arrayed. And then I'll think through the process, the technique: How do I prep it, how do I serve it and plate it in a way that allows it to be like, professionally and efficiently and cleanly without any mess, arrive at the table? So I love thinking about this. And really, it's like a microcosm of what we do, but I can manage it all. I don't need a project manager, I don't need a building contractor, I don't need a client, I don't need a huge budget. And you know, it's one man; it's like what I used to do as a one man show at MOD, but now I just do it at home in the kitchen for people to eat. (both laugh)

Rachel Nice! It's great to do what you love.

Colin Yeah! Yeah.

Rachel So what kinds of dishes or what's an example of a dish that you enjoy cooking?

Colin Oh, there're so many. So I've just been conceiving a new menu for a friend. So we have a good friend who is going to be going away for a year so we wanted to give her a good send-off. And it's a slew of five dishes. And one of them is quite interesting because it's it's a ceviche, which is like a cured, raw seafood with just lime, so you don't cook it, yeah, that's the basis of ceviche. But I'm like completely updating it in a sort of new way, and pairing it with unusual things like foie gras or even like a spiced sorbet.

Rachel Wow!

Colin So that you kind of like eat it together, yeah. So it's just experiments and also very pleasurable to look at.

Rachel Spiced sorbet...

Colin Yeah. I might, I might do that for you and Kelley.

Rachel Amazing.

Colin If you give me five stars for this interview.

Rachel I'm glad I asked this question. (both laugh) Definitely, yeah sure!

Colin Five out of five, okay? Not five out of 10. (laughs)

Rachel Actually it's not us doing the reviews, so they have to give both of us five stars.

Colin Okay, yeah, okay both of us get five stars.

Colin Right. So I don't know whether it was I who did it successfully, but I think it was borne out of part survival and part passion. So passion – given Singapore's market is such, it's not huge, the range of projects are what they are, but there's a lot of talent here. So is there room to flex your creative muscles elsewhere? And when you work abroad, the context, the questions you ask are also different, which is very interesting. You are forced to ask different questions.

Survival, because when we started, we faced a few recessions. And during those periods, there was there was a need for survival; to explore other markets beyond Singapore. So I remember, in the early days, when we're just in Singapore, we hadn't worked abroad yet. Maybe just Malaysia. But you know, Malaysia is like, almost part of Singapore, and Singapore is part of Malaysia, it's really one big cultural, similar melting pot, right? We wanted to venture into China, or elsewhere. So we prepared a portfolio with as many photographs as we could – we didn't have many projects, we'd have to use full bleed photos, one each page so it looked very thick but actually, there are not many projects in there. We identified seven or eight developers that we admired around the world – France, China, the States – and we mailed the hardcopy – this is you know, in the earlier years – out to them, and we got one reply from China.

And it turned out to be SOHO China, the very famous Zhang Xin, who had developed at that point in time, the Commune by the Great Wall, with a number of illustrious designers, including, local guys from Singapore as well. And so we were asked to meet up with her and I think they didn't know we were in Singapore, they said: Oh, would you like to come for breakfast? (laughs) So we were like: We're not really in Beijing. But we flew out as soon as we could, had a really good meeting, she was someone who needed to work with you because there was chemistry, she wanted to see whether there was and, we got along very well. And we went on to do like, I think seven or eight, maybe even more projects with them. And that began our sort of greater regional and, not really international but some further-flung countries – that began the trajectory and also the growth of the firm.

Colin Hopefully.

Rachel Could you tell us more about that?

Colin Yeah, well, it will open as soon as it can. The Standard is a brand that we have admired for many years. It's from North America, I think you may be familiar with the famous one on the High Line, as well as you know, in Hollywood, and they've recently opened in London. But they've expanded now, they're all over Asia, because they've now formed a new partnership with with a Thai developer, and they're expanding rapidly and we had the privilege of designing the Singaporean outfit. So The Standard's interesting because there's a very strong DNA.

So unlike our other projects, where almost all the hotel brands we designed for, they are what they call soft brands. So if you're familiar, hotels have two main kinds: There's a hard brand, which means its style is already dictated with a brand manual, like a Sheraton or a Grand Hyatt. And then there are soft brands, where it's more ambiguous, like Design Hotels, like the Luxury Collection, or Autograph Collection. So most of the time, we're given, almost always the soft brands. Which means we get to come up with the branding – like we have this other project for Hilton, it's a Curio Collection, which is again, a soft brand and it's in China, and it's called 1000 Moons.

Rachel Oooh!

Colin Yeah, it's a very cool name, it's set in the greenery of Anji in the bamboo forest. So we tend to work on projects like that. But for The Standard it's interesting because they are arguably very design-centric, but they're also kind of like a hard brand because they've a very clear DNA, and you know their love for a certain period of design. As seen in many of their projects, the use of colour, et cetera, is very distinctive, and their design team is very involved. They don't sit back and just look at operations, they're actually very involved in the design process. So for us it was a very interesting experience because it's a kind of hard-soft brand. And we had the privilege of trying to contextualise what The Standard brand would be like in sort of modern, contemporary, tropical Singapore. So the site is great. It's you know, right by the Shangri La, so it will be sort of the young upstart. (both laugh) And working with a very major Singaporean architectural firm DP, they're handling architecture, we're doing the interior design, and they're also doing the landscape. So coming together to sort of create this sort of seamless experience – fingers crossed, hope it turns out really well. And hopefully, we'll see it end of this year or early next year.

Rachel Nice, we're excited to see how it turns out!

Colin Yeah me too! Maybe we can have a meal there. That'll be fun. (laughs)

Rachel That will be nice! Okay, let's maybe move on to the next section of this interview, which is your life views.

Colin Oh, well, that's something that I don't think we can take full credit for. Again, I think it's a lot of Divine opportunities, because I think there're lots of great designers out there who perhaps just aren't at the right place or the right time, and I think we've been really fortunate and blessed to be at the right place at the right time. But once we've had the opportunity, I think the things that have seen us through are two: One is a commitment to our ethos, and to be unwavering, whatever the project, and the other is an amazing team, all those people we talked about, and the many more who are not mentioned who have dedicated so much passion, and just rigour and commitment to seeing things through – without which a top-line concept is nothing.

Like my design tutor, Renee Cheng used to say to me, she said: You're really great at concepts Colin, but you know what? A concept without development is not even worth two cents. Because in the end, it's just talk. We're in the business of not just talk, we're in the business of making ideas real. So I think to make it real, it's our team and also, whenever a really great project happens, like let's say the Citibank project, which you know, opened in Orchard beside the Apple store two years ago? It's also because we have really great partners, a supportive client who is open to a vision, a builder who is very professional, and a whole bunch of other consultants who are really skilled in their particular area of expertise. Because as designers, we know this much, and we know a little bit of everything else. These guys really know their stuff. So together, it's possible – any one of us alone, it would just be an idea.

Colin I don't know what there's not ideal in light of the things you mentioned, although those are all important, but I think following trends is antithetical to having that unwavering, internal secure barometer of what's right.

Rachel Yup.

Colin I think trends don't always, but they might make you intellectually a bit lazy, or lethargic. And also, I think it's really hard for someone who has a very clear internal barometer to follow a trend because not everyone, not every person is made the same. A trend was created by a collective right? And if you're not part of the collective, then why bother. But if you if you sincerely like the trend, then it's not a trend. It's just something that you like. And even after it's not trendy, you just keep doing it. Like I can't be bothered. Like when we did our house, the most commonly remarked thing that people say to me – old friends who have been to my little apartment, and then now to our house – they say: Wow, this is just like a scaled-up version of what you used to have. Which means that what internal barometer I used back then 20 years ago, and now, it's similar. I'm still who I basically am and I still enjoy the things that I used to, it's just maybe more refined and more scaled-up.

Yeah, you know, it's not like with every home, there's a new trend. I mean, especially for homes, maybe for hospitality, for commercial projects, yeah if you are grasping for novelty and then you latch on to a trend, I think that's incredibly understandable. But for residential, I think to me, that's where I would draw a hard line. I don't think houses should be trend-inspired. I think houses should be owner; occupier-inspired, like understand how weird; unique; strange; eccentric, the owner is and then take that, exploit it, run with it and create something that makes sense only for that person. Like a bespoke suit. You know, rather than: Oh it's trendy to wear those – you know how now it's trendy for boys to wear these oversized shirts that have sleeves come up to here.

Rachel Yeah.

Colin Yeah. It does not fit my body type. I put it on, I look like a dork. But if I was trend-biased and trend-dependent, I would just wear it anyway even if it didn't – but you know, I wear the same stuff a lot now because it's still me after 20 years.

Rachel Yeah. Actually didn't Steve Jobs do that as well?

Colin (both laugh) Yeah, well he created a trend lah I guess.

Rachel By not following trends. (laughs)

Colin Yeah, yeah, that turtleneck trend.

Colin Design concept? Wow, I mean that's such a big question but without the benefit of tailoring it to one specific typology, or experience, or function, I would say in my mind, future casting would probably be the overlapping or hybridisation or collision – in a good way – of the virtual world, or augmented reality world, and the actual world. So these three layers coming together, I think, is probably very exciting. Yeah, like I'm excited; I can't even imagine what the possibilities are like.

Colin (laughs) Uh, No? (both laugh) The short answer if this is a quickfire, no? It completely disinterests me because I think it trains my mind to be just turned on by like flashcards with no depth. It's not like it's not entertaining – I would gladly watch TikTok with my godchildren, or if you had it on and you had something cute to show me, I would. I don't deride it at all. But personal interests, if I had to get involved, no. Not at all. Not as a form of expression, not – like we have an Insta account for MOD, and that's managed by Joy – I personally have zero interest. I barely know what's going on in our Insta channel. Because I'm living it, I don't need to go visit it. (laughs)

Rachel I see, I see. Okay, that makes sense.

Colin Oh by the way, I do have five Instagram accounts, but they're all just private; I have no followers. I use it as like a memory, photo album.

Rachel Actually a lot of people do that.

Colin – do that, yeah, yeah.

Rachel But I'm kind of wary, because everything is in your digital footprint.

Colin Oh... I don't care – those those photos aren't really I mean, they're personal to me, but they're not like, you know, scandalous or anything, so. The Internet can peek in, I don't care.

Colin I think having the next generation energised and ploughing forward gives me strength and inspiration to keep up with them and to keep leading them as best as I possibly can till they don't need me to lead them anymore. Yeah.

Colin Yeah. The short answer is, I think we should just build less and consume less and use less. There's no way we can say everything we build, just because we build sustainably, is sustainable-minded – it's not. We just don't need as much stuff as you know. Yeah, I appreciate the flair and and ingenuity that is seen in like, let's say, the Salone del Mobile. But do we need, you know, 15,000 more new chair designs? But same goes for hotels and everything that we design. So I think what I would say is design fewer to last longer and give it more thought. So as opposed to doing five projects in five years, that will get redone in another five years do one project every five years, get paid much more because that thing is going to last five times longer. So I could work that way, if I could use that same rhythm that I use on my house; in designing my house – the whole process I took, I think that would really make a difference because I would never tear it down because I think it's so well-thought-through and well-built. That's more sustainable, doing less, but do more meaningful. Do more meaningful stuff with the less that you do.

Rachel That is very profound.

Colin Well, ya. But also, economically, the powers that be and the the way the world turns, it's an incredibly difficult paradigm shift. So although that seems to me the solution, I think it's not an easy one to achieve.

Rachel Right? We can only try our best.

Colin Yeah!

Colin Oh, school of life versus school, school.

Rachel Correct.

Colin I would say probably needful – I think formal education is needful, but there's so much more that fleshes you out as a complete designer, so I would say it's probably quite equal. I would say, if I didn't go to school, I wouldn't maybe be aware of the processes, the language, the the mechanics of how things maybe work. But then those alone mean very little without life experiences and exposure. So I love to travel, we take every opportunity to do so and be exposed to different things. So yeah, school of life: Incredibly important. You got to go and live or else you cannot design. Like, every time I'm reviewing a design or designing something, I'm putting myself in the virtual experience and saying: How would this work, and I can only do so because I have experiences before. Either really great ones, that I want to draw from, or not so great ones I want to make better.

Colin I think more well-roundedness and not so much of a tunnel vision because I think design skill and processes, that's one core aspect, but there are so many others that we talked about. I think at least taste a foretaste of that should be shared at the school level.

Colin Oh, wow, those are slightly different questions. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I would want to be an educator if I wasn't an architect, actually. I do have a passion for it. But have I, will I return? Yes, I have actually, several times. Most recently, like a few semesters teaching at the NUS at year three, invitation of a good friend and the whole undergraduate coordinator Assoc Professor Ong Ker-Shing (Shing), who also runs her own firm. And would I do it again? Yes, I would. It was quite exhausting to do it together with running a firm, and so I could only do it for a semester or two at a time. I think I needed to take a break but I definitely would return to it. I enjoyed engaging with – and especially when you meet really bright and driven students. I taught during the COVID and post-COVID years so that was a bit strange, studio culture was still a little bit fragmented, and I would love to see what it's like now that things are back in full swing. If I wasn't an architect, I would be an artist. Yeah, so I almost got a minor for that in undergraduate school, I had quite a few installation art courses, and I created quite a lot of incision pieces. In fact, I installed some illegally in my school, I even burst the water pipe, installing an installation undercover. (laughs)

Rachel (laughs) Woah!

Colin A few of my friends were digging, installing these totems – it was quite meaningful. And then I burst a water pipe and we tried to seal it with bubblegum. (laughs) And though we patched it back, next morning it was completely flooded and I got into trouble.

Rachel Oh dear.

Colin Yeah. So that's my other real passion. I mean in our home also, there're a lot of moments of installation art, with all kinds of mediums. I'm not very good with my hands, but I like thinking things through. And also I would love to pursue my culinary adventures a little bit more, maybe a bit more formally. I've tried, you know, a couple of times to do like private dining experiences, and those were fun, but maybe in a more regular way. Also, I would love to be able to be more involved at a bird's eye level in terms of design, maybe consulting or sitting on boards for companies or institutions where design thinking or design criticality is important – I think that there will be something lovely to do. So that there's a little bit of a more macro picture rather than just the projects that we work on. So like across the gamut from like really small stuff that you can hold in your hand, all the way up to maybe even policy or the way we think.

Colin There are some jury panels that are really lovely because it's very democratic, and you know that there is no political agenda, and people are just genuinely wanting to talk about design and give the one with the most merit the award. And those are incredible. I've enjoyed that, like the Dezeen Awards was one of those. There're other awards where you sense that there is sort of an underlying agenda, because the award stands for something – which they all do, they need to, but sometimes then it sort of veers the conversation a certain way. So I'm well aware of the realism, or the reality of how awards run. And it's enjoyable to meet peers and discourse at that level, but also at the same time, I don't necessarily think it's a substitute for the creative gesture. For me, it's a little bit like the crit (critique), being a Crit in school – to be able to objectively sit back and say whether I like it or not, let me assess it for what it's worth. So it's the same mentality as when I teach, honestly. Except it's more one way, because there's no dialogue with the nominee right? You just consume what they show you, you don't talk to them.

Colin Wow, you know, you asked this at a very timely juncture. Just two days ago, or a day ago, I had a super meaningful conversation with one of my ex-students, who is now also in his own right, a leading member of the design community here in Singapore. And there are quite a few of my former students who have really shone and become pillars of the community. And he was saying to me, just recounting – although I was a little bit of a scary tutor and made people cry, apparently. I don't even recall those. Apparently, I would destroy models. But then I asked: Maybe that model was a tensegrity; tension; structure model, and I had to test it? I don't know, maybe, (both laugh) but he said in spite of all of that, he is very appreciative of the mentorship that was given. And I felt so touched by it, because oftentimes you do what you do, but you don't actually know what kind of impact it has. And he said it with the utmost sincerity, that he was so thankful that we had crossed paths that way. And maybe he's what he is – I mean, he's obviously inherently very talented and gifted as an entrepreneur but he's also the way he is because of the people in his life, including people like myself.

So what I would say to people, and what I've always said to them is, I think you really – two things: One, you need to know yourself. Like I don't believe in the American dream, where "you can be whatever you want to be", I don't think so. I think people are made for – I'm not saying this to limit people, but in fact, to give people the freedom to be who they are – I think people are made differently with different skill sets and different propensities, either character-wise or skillset-wise. And it would be unwise, to not recognise that and not exploit that; fulfil that; accomplish as much as you can within those. So within recognising those limitations, you actually free yourself up to be the best you can be. Like, for instance, if a glass thought it was a hammer, it would be smashed. But if a glass recognises it's glass, it would be the most wonderful object to quench your thirst every time it held water, right? So I think you need to know what you are. And with that reality check, then commit and give it the best you can with the opportunities that you've been blessed with.

Rachel Wow, that's a really great way of phrasing it. And it kind of ties back to your religious beliefs right?

Colin Yeah.

Rachel That everyone is made individually for something.

Colin Yeah.

Rachel And given a certain set of gifts.

Colin I think so. I think we're made very much specifically to enjoy creation and the Creator who made the world, but we're also made uniquely by this Creator, to be living life to the fullest in a particular way. And I think you and I have both to some degree started on that trajectory, right? You've found something that you love doing and you're doing it, I too. That may change tomorrow, who knows, but I think living in constant awareness of who you are, knowing yourself. And knowing yourself also means knowing what you're not, as much as what you are. And I know I'm not a lot of things and I'm glad that I'm not doing those things. And what I am, I'm glad for the opportunity to be.

Rachel Nice. Okay, so I think that would be all for the Life Views section.

Colin Wow, okay! (laughs)

Rachel Let's move on to something fun!

Colin Okay, fun!

Colin The egg.

Rachel Why?

Colin Oh. I guess the chicken had to come from somewhere. (laughs) But then who created the egg, right? Okay. I don't know. Both. Chicken, egg. Egg, chicken. (laughs)

Colin I like sleeping in, I like lazing and watching a movie on the big projector screen. I love cooking a hearty meal and my wife saying that's the best meal she ever had.

Colin Ooh. Probably U2's "All I want is You". Or, Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah".

Colin I'd say Singapore is actually a really great platform. For many, many reasons, like how its central, how it's both East meets West, how its professionally run.

Colin Definitely Peter Zumthor. I also love Ferdinand Porsche, who created you know, the "911" – one of my favourite cars. I love, let's see, I love Steve Jobs for creating all the Apple products.

Colin Probably my father. Because to me design is great, but much more important is what's inside. And my father has been, or was my role model in terms of how to live life, how to face challenges, how to treat other people.

Colin Probably chicken rice – drumstick, and the kind where they soak the scallions in ginger oil.

Colin Deep-sea diving. I've done that several times – I would never dare to skydive.

Colin Fly for sure. I can't imagine what it must be like to enjoy the world from that kind of perspective. Like a drone. I would love it. If I could drone right now, I would like totally. (imitates horizontal drone movement) Yeah, that would be great. (laughs)

Colin Oooh. You know that wish that keeps granting wishes, right? I would wish for that one. But that's cheating, I know. Okay, so what would I wish for? I would wish to be happily married for the rest of my life, I would wish for all my friends and family to be part of my life for as long as I live, and I would wish for a deep sense of contentment and peace in whatever circumstance I'm in.

Colin Oooh. Definitely to the future more than the past? Because it's unknown. And I love surprises that way.

Colin That is probably the best question I've ever been asked in my entire life of being interviewed. I am terrified of rats. So a T-Rex-sized rat? I would basically pee in my pants and implode if I saw one. Even a normal-sized rat scares me to bits. So, definitely the rat-sized T-Rexes.

Colin Ohhh. Hitler has more personality. He is horrible x10 Kim Jong Uns, but more personality I think. I'm a bit of a WWII freak, and not like I respect or adore Hitler but I'm a bit of a Hitler fanatic. Any movie, or fact, or documentary on Hitler, I would love to watch it or I have watched it. He intrigues me for how maniacally evil, but also how clearly misguided but yet so committed to the ideas that he had.

Colin Thank you! That was really fun.

Rachel And for taking time out of your busy schedule.

Colin No worries! It was a pleasure.

Rachel Yup, we really enjoyed it!